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Friday, March 25, 2011

Will We Have a Sanhedrin In the Future?

I know I am going to receive a lot of flak for the following, but thankfully, the Chief Rabbinate (who performed - and claims to be able to annul - my conversion) doesn't read my blog, and furthermore, nothing a man does (versus what a woman does) can harm his shiddukh chances. So I figure, go for broke:

It seems to me that the entirety of Mesekhet Horayot - about what to do when the Sanhedrin errs - itself is the eulogy for the Sanhedrin. The Yerushalmi there says that you disobey the Sanhedrin when it says left is right and right is left, and the Bavli there says that there is no kavod ha-rav (honoring a rabbi) in a case of hillul ha-shem (desecration of God's name, including pronouncement of erroneous halakhic views). Furthermore, the principle of ein shaliah b'davar `averah ("there is no [excuse of being someone else's] proxy [as an agent] in the case of [the performance of] sin [at their behest]"), which demands disobedience of everything and anything anyone ever commands anyone else when it violates the Torah, means here would never be a case where you should obey the Sanhedrin if you disagree with it, which results in abolition of the Sanhedrin altogether.

Now, the Sifrei famously disagrees, and say to follow the Sanhedrin even when it says left is right and right is left, but we have already seen that the Bavli and Yerushalmi seem to disagree, as well as the fundamental and axiomatic principle of ein shaliah b'davar `averah. Rabbi D. Z. Hoffman suggests that the Yerushalmi and Sifrei simply disagree, while others suggest that Sifrei and Yerushalmi are talking about two different situations: Sifrei says obey if you are a layman and don't know enough, Yerushalmi says to disobey if you are a hakham and know enough to question authority. Others, however, suggest that the two are talking about different kinds of errors of the Sanhedrin's: Sifrei says obey a minor error (such as a disagreement between you and the Sanhedrin on how to interpret a source), but Yerushalmi says to disobey a major error (such as the Sanhedrin's grossly overlooking an entire critical source). But of those three opinions (one, that Sifrei and Bavli/Yerushalmi disagree; two, that they are directed at different kinds of people; three, that they are speaking of different kinds of errors), the first two of them seem to annul the entire existence of the Sanhedrin; when taken to their logical conclusions, they seem to say that no one should ever obey the Sanhedrin when they disagree with it.

Update: In the comments, here, Larry Lennhoff directed me to here. There, two commentaries are translated, one by the RambaN - summarizing the simple and traditional view of obeying the Sanhedrin - and the other by the Yad ha-Melekh (a commentary on the RambaM), summarizing the view of disobedience which I here, in my blog, am favoring. The RambaM, in Hilkhot Mamrim 1:2, says,
ב כָּל מִי שְׁאֵינוּ עוֹשֶׂה בְּהוֹרָאָתָן--עוֹבֵר בְּלֹא תַעֲשֶׂה, שֶׁנֶּאֱמָר "לֹא תָסוּר, מִכָּל הַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר-יַגִּידוּ לְךָ" (ראה דברים יז,יא). וְאֵין לוֹקִין עַל לָאו זֶה, מִפְּנֵי שֶׁנִּתַּן לְאַזְהָרַת מִיתַת בֵּית דִּין: שֶׁכָּל חָכָם שֶׁמּוֹרֶה עַל דִּבְרֵיהֶם--מִיתָתוֹ בְּחָנֵק, שֶׁנֶּאֱמָר "וְהָאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר-יַעֲשֶׂה בְזָדוֹן, לְבִלְתִּי שְׁמֹעַ . . ." (דברים יז,יב).

(My translation) Anyone who does not act according to their (the Sanhedrin's) ruling, violates a negative commandment, as it says, "Do not depart from any word which they shall tell you" (cf. Deuteronomy 17:11). And we do not lash (violators) for (violation of) this negative commandment, because it is warned in the Torah as being liable for capital punishment, i.e. death by the court, for every sage who rebels against their (the Sanhedrin's) words (i.e. the zaqen mamre), his death is by strangulation, as it says, "And the man who shall do deliberately, without listening..." (Deuteronomy 17:12).
Back to the Yad la-Melekh, commenting on RambaM, he says,
…It is clear that according to the understanding of Rashi and the Mizrachi the intent of the Sifre [that one must listen to the rabbis even when it apparently involves Torah prohibitions] is against the view of the Babylonian Talmud and also against the Yerushalmi. Furthermore since the Rambam omits mention of this Sifre therefore we have only the halachic view that is explicit in the Bavli and Yerushalmi. Thus all halachic rulings which appear to contradict the words of the Torah e.g., eating prohibited fats or killing an innocent man – irrespective as to the authority of the rabbi giving the ruling they are not to be accepted. It is stated explicitly in the Yerushalmi and also the Bavli that if someone errs in this matter and thinks it is an obligation to listen to these rabbis to eat fat prohibited by the Torah because he thinks it is a mitzva to always obey the rabbis – this individual is obligated to bring a sacrifice as he would be for eating any Torah prohibited food in error.
(End of Update)

All the arguments against Haredi Da'at Torah (see Professor Lawrence Kaplan: (1), (2)) apply to the Sanhedrin too, albeit to a different degree. That is, while Haredi rabbis are very wrong and provide no justifications for their insanity other than "because I said so", by contrast, the Sanhedrin would, hopefully, be only a little bit wrong and actually try to justify itself, but the principle of the Sanhedrin is the same as with Da'at Torah. If we reject one, why not the other?

All this means that the entire institution of zaqen mamre (the rebellious elder wo disobeys the Sanhedrin) is like ben sorer u'moreh (the rebellious child, whom Hazal said was never meant to be punished in real life, with the Torah's treatment of that subject being an educational lesson of an ideal but unrealistic concept).

Update: my friend Michael Berg showed me this, a passage (and commentary thereon) from the Mei ha-Shiloah, the Ishbitzer Rebbe, Rabbi Mordechai Yosef Leiner, discussing Korah. The Mei ha-Shiloah writes,
"The entire congregation is holy, and God is in their midst; why then do you lift yourselves up above the congregation of the Lord." (Num 16:3). Here Korach makes the claim that there is no hierarchy in Israel where one individual ought to be set higher than his fellow man, for God is in the midst of the entire congregation. That is to say that Hashem dwells within everyone equally, as it is written in the midrash (Talmud Bavli, Ta'anit, 31a) "In the future, the Holy One Blessed Be He will make a dance for all the righteous." "Dance" refers to a circle, in which no one is closer [to the center] than his fellow man. And Korach claimed that this vision was already realized at the time!?!
The blogger there, Elli Sacks, comments, saying,
wo weeks ago, in Parashat Be-ha'alotekha, we read about the story of Eldad and Meidad. As you will recall (Numbers: Chapter 11) the 70 elders of Israel had traveled from the Israelite camp to the Tent of Meeting where the Spirit of the LORD descended upon them, endowing them with the power of prophecy. At the same time, the Spirit of the LORD descended upon two additional men -- Eldad and Meidad -- who had remained within the Israelite encampment, and who also began to speak the word of God. Moshe's second-in-command, Yehoshua Bin Nun, feared that this "extra-territorial" prophesying represented a threat to the hierarchical power structure within Israelite society and asked Moshe to forbid them from doing so. But Moshe's reaction towards Eldad and Meidad is not only not hostile, it seems downright giddy. "Would that all of Hashem's people were prophets, and that Hashem had put His Spirit upon them!"

Does not the voice of Moshe in Be-ha'alotekha sound similar to Korach's voice in our parasha? Perhaps Moshe was echoing a sentiment that was popular in the Israelite camp. After all, hadn't the entire congregation achieved the level of prophecy at Sinai, when God spoke directly to each and every person present? If only the Children of Israel could have maintained that level of intimacy, that level of connection, there would have been no need for priests or elders or for political leadership. Moshe could have retired to the quiet of the Beit Midrash, learning Torah all day instead of constantly dealing with the enfuriating complaints of the maddening crowd.

So why is it that Moses was so offended by Korach's challenge? Why wasn't he wooed by the vision Korach proffered from the conclusion to Masekhet Ta'anit:
"Ulla Biraah said in the name of Rabbi Elazar: In the future the Holy One, Blessed be He, will make a dance of all the righteous people, and he will sit among them, in the middle of the circle, in the Garden of Eden; and each and every one will point with his finger toward Him, as it says: He shall say on that day, "Behold! This is our God; we hoped to Him and He saved us; this is Hashem to Whom we hoped; let us exult and be glad in His salvation."

The answer according to the Ishbitzer is that Korach was essentially correct in his claim, but, as so often is the case in life, his problem was one of timing. Korach expresses the true egalitarian ideal that will be realized in the End of Days when the righteous will dance around the Holy One in a circle, and everyone will commune in equal proximity to Hashem who will then truly be "in their midst." Nevertheless, it was patently clear to Moshe that this was NOT that time and that no matter the legitimacy of his ideals, Korach was jumping the gun.
It seems to me that we go a bit further: Exodus 20:15 states, "And they said unto Moses: 'Speak thou with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.' Deuteronomy 5:5 has Moses recalling that event, saying, "I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to declare unto you the word of the LORD; for ye were afraid because of the fire, and went not up into the mount." The people asked God to not speak directly to them anymore, but to use Moses as His intermediary. And what was the result? According to the Kuzari, the Golden Calf was not an attempt to replace God, but to replace Moses; when Moses failed to return from the mountain, the people were terrified at the prospect of losing their intermediary between them and God. In other words, the desire to set up a religious hierarchy to interpose between man and God, resulted in idolatry. And with good reason: how could a desire to interpose something between man and God result in anything but idolatry?(End of Update)

So much for the theoretical aspect; let me ask practically: what need do we have for the Sanhedrin? All of the problems in the Orthodox world today, are not due to disunity and lack of a central authority, but rather due to the ignorance and/or ignoring of the mesorah (tradition) and authentic halakhah. Our problem is not that there are two Torahs in Israel (cf. the houses of Hillel and Shammai), but that some of these Torahs out today, are ridiculous perversions of the true Torah. The reinstitution of the Sanhedrin wouldn't solve any problems. Reinstituting the Sanhedrin would merely provide one party with a monopoly, and political science, game theory, and public choice theory tell us quite amply what happens when a political party gains a monopoly and lacks any competition. In short, they become hideously corrupted; witness: the Chief Rabbinate of Israel. The last thing we need to do is provide any party with a monopoly. At least today, despite all the insanity in the Jewish world, one has the ability to disagree and follow his opinion, the one he believes he is correct. We need to increase the possibility by disbanding the Chief Rabbinate of Israel, not decrease it by turning the Rabbinate into a Sanhedrin.

The only need I would see for the Sanhedrin, is to legislate for the Beit ha-Miqdash (Temple)'s `avodah (sacrificial order), as there is no way to privatize the Temple. But Rabbi Avraham Yitzhaq ha-Qohen Kook and Rabbi Haim David Halevi said that sacrifices will not exist in the future and that they will be annulled, and if so, then there remains no need whatsoever for a Sanhedrin either. The historical institution would merely be like kingship or sacrifices: a concession to primitive, ignorant men of the "God speaks in the language of men" and "every prophet speaks in his own style" sort. Honestly, is my saying the Sanhedrin won't exist, any more extreme than saying qorbanot (sacrifices) won't? But Rav Kook and Rabbi Halevi said qorbanot indeed would not exist in the future! Now, the Torah has merely a few sentences about the Sanhedrin, while the entire book of Vayiqra (Leviticus) wasn't enough for qorbanot, and it had to spill over into Shemot (Exodus)!!! So if we can say that sacrifices - the subject of more than a fifth of the Torah! - will cease, then what is the danger of suggesting the same for the Sanhedrin too, which occupies merely a sentence or two in the Torah? And conceptually, what's the difference between ben sorer u'moreh and zaqen mamre? My point is that I do not believe my proposal is really so radical.

Regarding the Torah making concessions to primitive men, let me quote Rav Kook on this general subject, (Igrot 478, translated in Tzvi Feldman, Rav A. Y. Kook - Selected Letters (Ma'aliot Publications of Yeshivat Birkat Moshe; Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel, 1986), pp. 17f: [] are Feldman's, {} mine):
And if we find in the Torah certain things which other people think were based on the widely accepted notions of the distant past, but which are incompatible with the scientific knowledge of today, indeed, we do not know at all if today's research is absolute truth, and even if it is true, certainly there is also some important and sacred objective for which certain matters [in the Torah] needed to be presented in the commonly accepted description and not the exact one, as is plain in the spiritual concepts and in certain foundations of practice, for "the Torah provided for man's evil passions" {i.e., the Torah made certain laws as concessions to man's nature} or "to make [its words] intelligible {by using human idioms and language usage}," and upon all of them appears the living endearing divine wisdom.
Similarly, Rav Kook's Eder Hayakar (pp. 42-43, translated in Ben Zion Bokser, The Essential Writings of Abraham Isaac Kook (Amity House: Amity, New York, 1988.), p. 48, "Assyriology and the Bible"):
As to the similarities in teaching [between the Torah and the Code of Hammurabi], it was already made clear in the days of Maimonides, and before him in the teachings of the Talmudic sages, that prophecy reckons with man's nature, for it is its mission to raise his nature and his disposition by divine guidance, as is implied in the statement that "the commandments were only given so as to refine the nature of people" (Genesis Rabbah 44:1). Hence, whatever educational elements there were in before the giving of the Torah, which gained a following among the [Jewish] people and the world, if they only had a basis in morality and it was possible to raise them up to a high moral level - the Torah retained them.
According to the Midrash Rabbah on Devarim and Rabbi Yitzhaq Abarbanel, and the simplest interpretation of the book of Samuel, all this applied to kingship in the Torah (an opinion in the Talmud says that no, kingship is not a concession as these other sources believe but rather an ideal); why not to the Sanhedrin too? Why not say that like sacrifices and kingship, the Sanhedrin too was a concession to primitive man who needed an authority to compel him?

Furthermore, to quote Professor Marc Shapiro here, Rav Kook also says (to pastiche several disparate statements of his):
ואם תפול שאלה על איזה משפט שבתורה, שלפי מושגי המוסר יהיה נראה שצריך להיות מובן באופן אחר, אז אם באמת ע"פ ב"ד הגדול יוחלט שזה המשפט לא נאמר כ"א באותם התנאים שכבר אינם, ודאי ימצא ע"ז מקור בתורה.

כשהמוסר הטבעי מתגבר בעולם, באיזה צורה שתהיה, חייב כל אדם לקבל לתוכו אותו מממקורו, דהיינו מהתגלותו בעולם, ואת פרטיו יפלס על פי ארחות התורה. אז יעלה בידו המוסר הטהור אמיץ ומזוקק.

כל התורה הזאת של מלחמת רשות לא נאמרה כ"א לאנושיות שלא נגמרה בחינוך.

כל לב יבין על נקלה כי רק לאומה שלא באה לתכלית חינוך האנושי, או יחידים מהם, יהיה הכרח לדבר כנגד יצר הרע ע"י לקיחת יפת תואר בשביה באופן המדובר. ומזה נלמד שכשם שעלינו להתרומם מדין יפת תואר, כן נזכה להתרומם מעיקר החינוך של מלחמת רשות, ונכיר שכל כלי זיין אינו אלא לגנאי.
To translate myself:
And if a question arises about any law of the Torah, that according to ethical notions it will need to be understood in another manner, then if indeed the Sanhedrin decides that this law was made only for conditions that are no longer extant, then indeed a source for this [ethical notion] will be found in the Torah.

When natural[-law] morality strengthens in the world, in whatever form it will, every man is obligated to incorporate it into his own ethos from its source - namely its manifestation in the world - and its details will be explicated according to the way of the Torah. Then pure morality will arise into his grasp, strong and purified.

This entire teaching of milhemet reshut [voluntary wars of aggression, which the Torah permits] was said only for a mankind that had not yet completed its education.

Every heart will understand easily that only for a nation that had not come to its humanistic-educational conclusion - or individuals thereof - could need a concessionary law for the selfish human inclination via the taking of a beautiful woman (yafet toar) captive [in war] in the manner spoken of [in the Torah]. And from this we will learn that just as it is incumbent upon to rise beyond the law of taking a woman captive in war, so too we will merit to rise beyond the educational principle of voluntary wars (milhemet reshut), and we will recognize that every vessel of war is disgraceful.
Rav Kook is saying that we must reinterpret the Torah in accordance with new ethical notions. The Talmud itself already says that the law of taking a woman captive in war, is not an ideal but merely a concession, and Rav Kook extends this to the law of voluntary wars of aggression, which the Torah also permits. Rav Kook even says that any new ethical notion in the world must be incorporated by everyone, with the Torah explicating its details. I believe individual liberty and freedom to be one such new principle; to quote Ralph Waldo Emerson's Politics:
The tendencies of the times favour the idea of self-government, and leave the individual, for all code, to the rewards and penalties of his own constitution, which work with more energy than we believe, whilst we depend on artificial restraints. The movement in this direction has been very marked in modern history. Much has been blind and discreditable, but the nature of the revolution is not affected by the vices of the revolters; for this is a purely moral force. It was never adopted by any party in history, neither can be. It separates the individual from all party, and unites him, at the same time, to the race.
Similarly, Henry David Thoreau, "Civil Disobedience":
The progress from an absolute to a limited monarchy, from a limited monarchy to a democracy, is a progress toward a true respect for the individual. Even the Chinese philosopher was wise enough to regard the individual as the basis of the empire. Is a democracy, such as we know it, the last improvement possible in government? Is it not possible to take a step further towards recognizing and organizing the rights of man? There will never be a really free and enlightened State until the State comes to recognize the individual as a higher and independent power, from which all its own power and authority are derived, and treats him accordingly.

So at most, we'll have a Beit ha-Miqdash that functions as nothing more than a beit ha-knesset (synagogue) for tefilah (prayer), and a Sanhedrin that does nothing more than decide which siddurim (prayerbooks) to buy and which building maintenance and janitorial staff to hire. Update: I forgot that according to Rav Kook, while the sacrifices cease, there will still be flour (minhah) offerings, according to him. So perhaps we will still have a Sanhedrin to decide the laws of flour offerings. But my point is the same: we will, at most, have a very tiny, minimalistic Sanhedrin with almost no responsibilities or authority.

Thus, in my view: in the future, we will no longer have a Sanhedrin. There is simply no need for it.

53 comments:

Yoel Lerner said...

Interesting thinking. Let me add a couple of thoughts which may change your conclusions - for one, Orthodox Judaism is not the Jewish People, it is only a small slice of it. For another, there really is no "orthodox Judaism" at all, because each faction has its own interpretation and implementation of what "Orthodox Judaism" requires. The whole purpose of the Sanhedrin is to generate Jewish unity and overcome the internal divisions in our people. This is also true of the Malkhut and of the Mikdash. It doesn't really matter what Rav Kook said or any other individual authority, for that matter. Those institutions, Sanhedrin, Malkhut and Mikdash, are what turned twelve tribes of just-freed slaves into a coherent entity that had to be reckoned with. In fact, they were so successful that despite their disappearance many hundreds of years ago, the Jewish People still survives.

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

"Those institutions, Sanhedrin, Malkhut and Mikdash, are what turned twelve tribes of just-freed slaves into a coherent entity that had to be reckoned with. In fact, they were so successful that despite their disappearance many hundreds of years ago, the Jewish People still survives."

EXACTLY. They were concessions to necessity. We had a slave mentality and never would have been able to unify without them, but they have outlived their purposes.

Today, they would not generate unity, any more than the Ayatollahs have unified Iran. People would either rise in revolt against the Sanhedrin, or else unwillingly bend their necks to it in order to avoid the wrath of its police and army. That's unity?

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

I just added a few quotes of Rav Kook's, in Hebrew; see there.

M said...

Michael,

A few observations.

I'm not sure you understood Yoel Lerner's comment. You argue against the idea of rabbinic authority now that we have the new ethical principle of personal freedom. So why are you citing the Yerushalmi, Bavli, and the Sifrei? Why are you citing Rav Kook? If you don't accept these texts as authoritative, what is their meaning to you?

You make the remarkable assertion that

Rav Kook even says that any new ethical notion in the world must be incorporated by everyone, with the Torah explicating its details.

According to your understanding of Rav Kook, how do we go about recognizing these new ethical principles? When do we know it's time to recast—or simply cast off—some part of received Jewish law? You seem to rule out the possibly of a body of experts making this decision, so who should? Each person according to his conscience?

There are a few obvious problems with this. For example, if each and every individual is empowered to decide appropriate practice, how should we Jews establish standards for marriage and divorce?

But there's really a much more fundamental issue here: Halakha is law. And law by definition is binding. If each and every individual is empowered to decide appropriate practice for himself—and people just do what they feel like at any given moment—in what sense is halakha binding?

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

"If you don't accept these texts as authoritative, what is their meaning to you?"

What do you mean? I most certainly do accept these texts as authoritative! It is precisely because I accept these texts as authoritative, that I am a libertarian in the first place. It was the principle of ein shaliah b'davar `averah that inspired me to become libertarian in the first place. It all started when certain rabbis said that IDF soldiers should obey illegal orders that violate the Torah. My reaction to those rabbis, in which I cited ein shaliah b'davar `averah as contradicting them, is what caused me to become a libertarian in the first place.

In short, not only do I accept these texts as authoritative, but it is because of these texts that I am a radical individualist in the first place. Were it not for these texts, I would still be a statist.

"You seem to rule out the possibly of a body of experts making this decision, so who should? Each person according to his conscience?"

Bingo. Because if we have a body of experts do so, we have to decide, who is an expert. We'd have to get a body of experts to decide who an expert is.

"how should we Jews establish standards for marriage and divorce" --- Let everyone decide for himself whom to marry. Someday, when I want to propose marriage to a woman, I'll view it as incumbent upon myself to make sure I accept her as Jewish, and if she is a divorcee, to make sure I accept her get. It will be my own responsibility to consult my own rabbis and make sure I accept her credentials. We don't need standards. Let everyone accept his own rabbis and be his own judge for his own affairs. Let everyone bear his own sins on his own head. If I marry a woman with an invalid get, then she and I alone are committing adultery and she and I alone will bear our sin.

"Halakha is law. And law by definition is binding. ...in what sense is halakha binding?"

In the sense that God commanded it. What, is this not enough? Is God so unimportant?

Lisa said...

Your quotes from Rav Kook don't say what you think they say. The Rambam also says, in Moreh Nevuchim, that the qorbanot can be explained as a concession. But the same Rambam codified the qorbanot in his Mishneh Torah. And if you read his haqdama, you'll see that he explicitly does not include laws that were only for a time. The qorbanot will be brought, there will be a Sanhedrin, and we will be a real nation again.

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

Lisa, that's why I didn't cite Rambam, because while he says qorbanot were a concession, he never says they will cease. But Rav Kook very explicitly said they will cease. (On the other hand, Rav Kook did not say they were a concession to paganism; as a Qabalist, Rav Kook was unable to accept that aspect of Rambam's thought.)

I also reject the idea that being "a real nation" requires a coercive government. Too many people make this mistake. They confuse society with government, and think that the people are the government and the government is the people. Frederic Bastiat notes that so many people confuse society with the state, that when you propose the government not do something, they think you are saying no one should do it. When people say Israel is to be a Jewish nation, they think that this means we must have a government enforcing Jewish law. But no, that is not Torah; that is Nimrod and Jean-Jacques Rousseau. Nimrod told the people to build a tower for their own national glory, but God considered this sort of nationalism to be nothing short of an assault on Him Himself. Rousseau thought the "General Will" was to be executed according to majoritarianism, believing the "people" were the same as the coercive, fascist state (as Hans-Hermann Hoppe puts it, democracy is just soft communism). Rabbi Hirsch condemns this sort of vain and gross nationalism, reminding us that we are a nation only due to our Torah, our covenant at Sinai, and not due to our government or nation-state. The Jewish people without a government remain the Jewish people. We do not need a king or a government to make us Jewish. No, I say. We are Jewish because we stood at Sinai and received the Torah, because God has commanded the Torah, and not because of any oligarchy of great bearded men sitting on the Temple Mount.

Besides, as John Locke notes in "A Letter Concerning Toleration", if a Christian believes the government may compel Christianity upon non-Christians, then he must admit that the Turkish government may impose Islam onto Christians. So too, if we say the Orthodox and Torah-observant Sanhedrin can impose its view of Judaism, then we must admit that a Reform or Sadducean Sanhedrin can do the same. It is this which the Yerushalmi rejects. If you allow an Orthodox Sanhedrin to compel and enforce, then a heterodox Sanhedrin can do the same.

Larry Lennhoff said...

I've just read the beginning of your argument but already I'm puzzled. Do you really think that there is only one objectively correct torah, but that we don't have any way of knowing what it is, only what it isn't?

In my way of looking at things there are plenty of issues where the torah leaves the details open for the interpreters to come. They can legitimately be resolved either way (thus Elu v'Elu divre elokim chaim) but it is best that they be resolved (aval halacha k'hillel). The role of the Sanhedrin is to resolve (for their generation at least) these lacunae.

Is swordfish kosher? There are legitimate arguments in both directions and personally while I don't eat it I do not protest when someone else does. The job of the Sanhedrin is to say whether everyone can eat it or not. Do you not see value in this? Do you think that in fact swordfish either is or is not kosher absolutely, and we can't force anyone to go against their understanding of what the only correct answer is?

Larry Lennhoff said...

Nonsense comment to get subscribed.

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

Larry, the story of the Tanur shel Akhnai seems to indicate that there is only one correct opinion (God's), but that He wishes man to follow man's opinion.

Based on Horayot and the principle of ein shaliah b'davar `averah, I would indeed agree that "in fact swordfish either is or is not kosher absolutely, and we can't force anyone to go against their understanding of what the only correct answer is?"

Since Sinai, we have of course relied on a Sanhedrin to rule for everyone, and we have had to balance between the principle that the Sanhedrin's authority is absolute and a zaqen mamre is to be executed, and the principle that ein shaliah b'davar `averah and that one must disobey the Sanhedrin when it errs (Horayot). It is my claim that the principle of ein shaliah b'davar `averah is the fundamental principle of Judaism, and that the Sanhedrin's authority was a concession to primitive people who did not know how to manage their own lives without a higher authority compelling them. The principle of disobeying any man that disagrees with God is absolute; the principle of bending your neck to accept the yoke of another man is merely a concession to primitive men who could not bear the yoke of God instead. When we asked for a king, it was considered a rejection of God as King; why cannot we say that a Sanhedrin is a rejection of God as Poseq?

am yisroel choi said...

Mr. Makovi, after reading your blasphemous comments, I have decided to lodge a formal complaint with the Israeli rabbinate. Consider your conversion annulled. You needn't follow the minhagim of the goyim all at once; you can gradually adopt them. But you should immediately stop those mitzvot that are forbidden to goyim--ask your rabbi what those are. Your rabbi can also instruct you in the 7 mitzvot of bnei noach. Also, if any of your tzitzit was tied by you, don't simply hefker them, as they are pasul. You should untangle the strings before hefkering them.
And although you are now halachically permitted to eat treif, don't do so in public until you have gotten used to walking around bare-headed, as eating a cheeseburger while wearing kippah and tzitzit could confuse young Jewish children who would then think it's okay for them to eat treif, chas v'shalom.

Lisa said...

What makes you think that Michael is a ger?

Larry Lennhoff said...

Lisa - opening sentence of the essay:
the Chief Rabbinate (who performed - and claims to be able to annul - my conversion)

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

Fishbein, LOL!!!!!!!!

Seriously, though, I am hoping that, hypothetically speaking, annulment of my conversion would not even hurt me. I already have papers from the Jewish Agency guaranteeing me Right of Return based on my parents - irrespective of my own conversion - and I am hoping - bz"h - to find a woman willing to marry me without any involvement of civil or religious authorities, which, if she agrees to do so, would make the Rabbinate irrelevant to me.

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

(Vis a vis the Rabbinate, I mean I want to do my own erusin and nisuin without the Rabbinate's cognizance.)

Larry Lennhoff said...

Two views on listening to the Sanhedrin.

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

Larry, thanks. The first view, of RambaN, I of course know about. The Yad ha-Melekh, however, was awesome for me. Thanks!

Also, see this, which my friend showed me yesterday. Basically, the Mei ha-Shiloah (the Ishbitzer Rebbe, R. Mordechai Yosef Leiner) says that Korah was correct, only that he came too soon. His view was correct - as evidenced by Moshe's response regarding Eldad and Meidad - but it was too utopian, for the Messianic era.

Anonymous said...

"Conversely, one who separates himself from the community and says, "I will do as I see fit," will not be forgiven and will be utterly destroyed. Our relationship to God is only through the community. The Torah was not given to individuals; nor were the covenants made with individuals. Our relationship to God is as members of the Jewish community. Maimonides (Teshuva 3:24) classifies a heretic as one who keeps all the mitzvot but separates himself from the Jewish people. Without a link to the community, there can be no link to God and Torah."

From:

http://www.aish.com/tp/i/oai/48966856.html

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

Who said anything about separating from the Jewish community?

Anonymous said...

You wrote for example:

"Let everyone decide for himself whom to marry. Someday, when I want to propose marriage to a woman, I'll view it as incumbent upon myself to make sure I accept her as Jewish, and if she is a divorcee, to make sure I accept her get. It will be my own responsibility to consult my own rabbis and make sure I accept her credentials. We don't need standards. Let everyone accept his own rabbis and be his own judge for his own affairs. Let everyone bear his own sins on his own head. If I marry a woman with an invalid get, then she and I alone are committing adultery and she and I alone will bear our sin."

Which means a complete individualism where the opinion of the community doesn't count.

And besides it is not true, what you wrote, because in your example not only you and your not properly divorced wife would be in trouble, but mostly your children, who would be considered to be momsers.
That's what the Torah says, the children pay for the sins of their parents.

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

I never said I don't care for the opinion of the community. I just don't think the community should have coercive power over me. But that doesn't mean I don't care. A grown man who has moved out of his mother's home, where his mother no longer have power over him, does that mean he no longer loves his mother? Of course not!

Anonymous said...

You see, in your own example the man "moves out".
To bring another example on my own, there are also man who gets divorced and still are in love with their ex-wife. So what thaqt they still are in love, fact is they are divorced.

And you ask me where you talked about seperating from the community?

It's all over the place!

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

"It's all over the place!"

Then apparently, you know more about my own views than I do.

Anonymous said...

Obviosly, yes.

This was btw not the only thing that I wrote. What's with your example, where the house of the mother is the community and the man moves out?

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

When the man moves out, he still loves his mother, despite no longer being under her control. So too, when a person ceases to be under the authoritarian, coercive control of the community, it does not mean he no longer cares about the community and serves it.

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

A man can continue to daven at the shul, continue to pay the rabbi, continue to pay for the mikvah, continue to use the local Jewish day school, and continue to shop at the local kosher food store, all without being compelled.

Anonymous said...

"When the man moves out, he still loves his mother"

I told you that love is also possible after a divorce, so this doesn't say anything.

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

Yeah, so basically, you're saying that you're not a member of the community unless they can coerce you.

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

Which means that not a single Jew on earth, except for Israeli Jews, is a member of a community. Every other Jew on earth is guilty of poresh min ha-tzibur, according to you, because only in Israel is there a Rabbinate with compulsive and coercive power. (The British Rabbinate is powerless.)

Anonymous said...

"A man can continue to daven at the shul, continue to pay the rabbi, continue to pay for the mikvah, continue to use the local Jewish day school, and continue to shop at the local kosher food store, all without being compelled."

When your children are considered to be momsers or non-Jewish (Khas ve'Shalom), then they may not be accepted in Jewish day school and the community can interfer with your life completely without chief Rabbinate. Your idea of freedom is an illusion.

"Yeah, so basically, you're saying that you're not a member of the community unless they can coerce you."

Yes, because when you want to be a member they can threaten to throw you out. With your decision to become a member you give up freedom. That's why my comparison forthe relation with the community is marriage not living in the house of the mother. You want to have the advantages of a married life, but not accept the disadvantages. And that doesn't work.

"Which means that not a single Jew on earth, except for Israeli Jews, is a member of a community. Every other Jew on earth is guilty of poresh min ha-tzibur, according to you, because only in Israel is there a Rabbinate with compulsive and coercive power. (The British Rabbinate is powerless.)"

That's not what I said. However, the Talmud teaches us that Jews in other countries are only doing as if they where practizing mitzvot. The real deal is possible only in Israel.

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

"then they may not be accepted in Jewish day school and the community can interfer with your life completely" --- That is not coercion.

"when you want to be a member they can threaten to throw you out" --- Again, that is not coercion.

Coercion is not when you voluntarily join a certain organization, and have applied to yourself the rules of the organization you joined. If I voluntarily join a congregation, then whatever contractual terms apply to that membership, are not coercion, because I chose to join. And most certainly, being expelled from the organization is not coercion.

"Coercion" means force-of-arms and violence being used to compel obedience. "Coercion" means men busting down your doors when you refuse to pay taxes, or the zaqen mamre being given a death sentence.

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

The epitome of non-coerciveness is herem. As long as a community or congregation limits itself to herem, it is not coercing dissenters.

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

So to my ear, what you're saying is, a community is not a community unless it can use violent force against dissenters.

Anonymous said...

"Coercion is not when you voluntarily join a certain organization, and have applied to yourself the rules of the organization you joined."

So what's your point with the Rabbanut in Israel. You converted with them, i.e. joined their club by free will, but you don't want to accept there rules. So why did you join in the first place?

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

Theirs was just the most convenient way to get a conversion. I could also convert with three laymen by a lake, but the Rabbinate was easier.

But in any case, the Rabbinate does coerce people without consent. For example, there are people who married in Cyprus, obviously indicating a desire to be free of the Israeli government's marital regulations, but the Rabbinate insists on overseeing their gittin.

Anonymous said...

"Theirs was just the most convenient way to get a conversion. I could also convert with three laymen by a lake, but the Rabbinate was easier."

In short, you joint their club because of the advantages and now you complain that there also disadvantages.

"But in any case, the Rabbinate does coerce people without consent. For example, there are people who married in Cyprus, obviously indicating a desire to be free of the Israeli government's marital regulations, but the Rabbinate insists on overseeing their gittin."

Because what they do has consequences also for their children. They might become momsers, and secular Jews who marry in Cyprus are not always thinking about such problems.

It seems that in your liberal fantasy world, parents can do all kind of harm to their children and no institution is allowed to interfer. This is not a Jewish idea : "Kol Israel aravim zeh le'zeh."

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

"In short, you joint their club" --- I didn't join their club. Even if I hadn't gotten a conversion via the Rabbinate, but instead had gotten one by the RCA or some such, the Rabbinate still would have coerced me anyway.

"Because what they do has consequences also for their children."

But who is to decide what a mamzer is? Batei Hillel and Shammai disagreed there. What gives one organization the right to impose their definition of mamzer on another group with a different definition?

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

I mean, what if some random rabbi stands up and declares himself the Chief Rabbi? On what basis do you consider the Chief Rabbinate to be the Chief Rabbinate? Maybe Edah Haredit is the Chief Rabbinate? Maybe Satmar is? Maybe Neturei Karta?

Anonymous said...

"I didn't join their club."

You converted with them. This says at least that you accepted them as a legitimate institution. Somebody who doesn't accept them like Satmer would not use their services.

"But who is to decide what a mamzer is?"

What's the alternative? That we all have family registers for 10 genrations? Or an anything goes like in Reform? You really want at each first Shidduch check some hundreds of papers to see if the lady fits?

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

"This says at least that you accepted them as a legitimate institution."

No, it says that I accepted that the three men at the mikvah were Shabbat observant and kosher witnesses, and that the mikvah was kosher. That's all.

"What's the alternative?"

How about hekhsherim? We have the OU for food, so why not a comparable hekhsher for people? Anyone who can prove to the organization that they are kosher, would get a "stamp". Problem solved. In other words: it would do exactly what the Rabbinate already does, except you would get to choose whether you want to belong to it or not, just as food companies can decide whether or not to invite the OU onto their premises.

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

Besides, halakhically, someone is kosher until proven to be a mamzer. That makes things a lot easier.

Anonymous said...

"No, it says that I accepted that the three men at the mikvah were Shabbat observant and kosher witnesses, and that the mikvah was kosher. That's all."

Is this so? And who told you that this men are observing Shabbat and that the Mikve is kosher and who paid for your conversion and who paid for the Mikve?

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

"And who told you that this men are observing Shabbat and that the Mikve is kosher"

That seems to be what is accepted as true, and no one has offered any evidence to counter that hazaqa.

Who paid for it? Unwilling, coerced taxpayers. Which is why we ought to privatize the mikvaot.

Anonymous said...

"Anyone who can prove to the organization that they are kosher, would get a "stamp". Problem solved."

In Israel a lot of people are registred as Jewish from the bining of the state on, who have no other documents than this to prove that the are Jewish.

They all have to convert? Or are entries from the Rabbanut accepted?

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

Everyone can judge for himself. Personally, I'll go by the Hazon Ish's standard (modified slightly): if someone says they are Jewish, and they are basically observant in general, and say they hold by matrilineal descent, then I'll accept them. Everyone else can have their own standards.

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

What do you think Orthodox Jews in America do? Most of them don't have any records either.

Anonymous said...

"That seems to be what is accepted as true, and no one has offered any evidence to counter that hazaqa."

Who accepted this as true? What did you check, i.e. what did you do to insure that everything is according to the Halacha? Did you rely on the Rabbanut?

The question is obviously a rhetoric one, because it is clear that you did rely on them. So, feel free not to answer.

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

I relied on them, yes, but I also rely on the OU and the OK and the Star-K and the rabbi of my shul. What's your point? What does relying on the Rabbinut have to do with anything?

Anonymous said...

"Everyone can judge for himself. Personally, I'll go by the Hazon Ish's standard (modified slightly): if someone says they are Jewish, and they are basically observant in general, and say they hold by matrilineal descent, then I'll accept them. Everyone else can have their own standards."

Great, according to these criteria you will have several million "Jews" from Ethopia who were not accepted up to now and who want to do Aliyah.

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

So let them do aliyah. According to the halakhah, any Noahide gentile can make aliyah.

Anonymous said...

" In short, they become hideously corrupted; witness: the Chief Rabbinate of Israel. "

In other words you relied for your conversion on people that you didn't think are casher.

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

Oh, they're technically kosher.

Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi) said...

But that's not saying much. You can be a naval birshut ha-torah and thus be eligible as a kosher witness.

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