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Thursday, December 17, 2009

Assassination of Rabin, Massacre by Goldstein

I've spent many years now thinking about the death of Rabin and the massacre committed by Baruch Goldstein. I don't have the time at the moment to explain my views, nor to explain how they have evolved over the years. (This is the one issue I can think of, in which the view I held upon my aliyah is fundamentally different than the view I hold now.) Suffice it to say that originally, my views were like those of nearly everyone else, but that now, my views are like those of Moshe Feiglin in Where There are No Men. As I learned more about the politics of Israel over the past 3+ years, my views on Rabin and Goldstein started to move further and further to the right, until, by the time I read Feiglin's book about 3 months ago, my views were already almost completely Feiglin-ish, and his view only served to finalize and crystallize the understanding I had myself been developing on my own.

I saw that the same view held by me and Feiglin is expressed very succinctly and accurately in Rabbi Emanuel Rackman's One Man's Judaism, in one of the new appendices added to the recent 2004 edition, p. 400:
Moreover, there was evidence that Dr. Goldstein overreacted when he heard the threat of a pogrom by the Muslims against the Jews of Hebron after their worship service. And if this was the fact, Dr. Goldstein was not a villain but a martyred hero. Rabin's assassin could not possibly be hailed as a hero when even Rabin's opponents knew that his death would not change the peace or slow it up but rather accelerate it. It was the defeat of Peres that put the brake on the ruling parties, and the assassination was not even a contributing factor.

Update: I just found the following interesting passage here. The passage is interesting to me because it relates Rabbis Kahane and Rackman to each other.:
In his biography of Kahane, False Prophet, Robert Friedman showed that Kahane had called for "liquidation" not only of Arabs, but also of Jews with whom he disagreed. He pointed out that Kahane raised as much as $500,000 a year from American Jews. In his book, he reports that "Parlor meetings arranged by Emanuel Rackman, the rabbi of the prestigious Fifth Avenue Synagogue and now dean of Bar Ilan University in Israel, earned Kahane up to $50,000 for an afternoon talk." Meir Kahane was not a "marginal" figure as many Jewish leaders said he was. He was a popular Jewish icon.
Now, the website is a collection of nonsensical ignorant drivel from white supremacists, so I'd be reluctant to rely on them, but the passage seems consistent with everything else I know. We've seen Rabbi Rackman's views on Goldstein and Rabin, and so it isn't hard to imagine that he'd have supported Rabbi Kahane. As for Rabbi Kahane's alleged widespread support in America, one of my friends in America, a man who followed Rabbi Kahane's speaking arrangements wherever they went, that when Rabbi Kahane spoke in Sha'arei Tefillah, a popular Conservative synagogue in White Oak, Maryland, Rabbi Kahane drew such an audience that they had to open up their expanded High Holyday seating. Rabbi Kahane was certainly no marginal figure. So even though the above passage is from a rabid pack of uninformed idiots (one poster, for example, claims that in the Six-Day War, Israel fought a rag-tag group of impoverished villagers, even though in reality, Israel fought a trained conventional Egyptian army armed with quite modern Soviet weaponry), it seems to check out. That said, I have no idea what to make of the "liquidation" claim; Rabbi Kahane explicitly and repeatedly stated in clear and certain terms that he opposed only terrorists, and not Arabs per se, and that he supported the right of peaceful law-abiding Arabs to reside in Israel. How one can square this with a supposed attempt by Rabbi Kahane to "liquidate" the Arabs is beyond me.

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Update: In response to "rogueregime" in the comments, let me explain myself:

When I first came to Israel, all I had was my support for the Zionist enterprise in general (which I still possess) and my belief that Judaism values all of humanity in general (which I still believe). In other words, I generally believed that G-d was returning the Jews to Israel, and that all of humanity and human knowledge were valuable and lovely. On my blog, I often write about these topics, and some readers have said that my gathering of sources on appreciation and love for gentiles in Jewish sources is some of the most comprehensive work they've seen on the subject.

Suffice it to say, then, the whole Baruch Goldstein massacre was wrenching to every fiber of my being. When on TV I'd see Baruch Marzel celebrating Goldstein, I could not understand how such horrific people could exist on earth. It absolutely disgusted me. It was a perversion of Judaism; it was a betrayal of basic humanity.

But it is only when you come to Israel and see things firsthand that you must take a closer look, and realize things are not so simple. My basic core beliefs have barely changed, but my greater knowledge of the facts on the ground in Israel have made all the difference.

One comes to Israel and realizes that the Israeli Left is taking Israel to hell in a handbasket, and doing nothing at all whatsoever to stop terrorism. The Left in fact hands land and AK-47s to terrorists, almost in reward for their acts of murder.

So the first thing that occurred to me was: if the Israeli army and government do nothing at all to stop terrorism, then what else are people like Goldstein supposed to do? If they legitimately and sincerely want to stop terrorism - with no racism at all in their hearts, but only hatred of terrorism - what do I expect them to do? The IDF is doing nothing at all, and Goldstein has no army of his own to calmly and properly conduct investigations and searches.

My thinking on Rabin matured as well. I realized that the Oslo Accords did nothing but to endanger innocent human life, by giving land to unrepentant terrorists who openly and unabashedly admitted to intention to commit terrorism in the future. In Israel, Oslo is known as "when peace broke out". The very day of Oslo, my rabbi was driving from Jerusalem to his home in Beit El (in the West Bank). On the way, the IDF stopped him and diverted him to a side-road. My rabbi asked why he couldn't take the main road anymore to Beit El. Remember, this is the very day Oslo occurred. The IDF told my rabbi that the main road was no longer safe to drive on, because of Oslo. The very day of Oslo, the IDF already recognized that Oslo compromised the safety of innocent human life. My rabbi added that he had been a kashrut supervisor (mashgiah) in an Arab factory, but that Oslo made it too dangerous for him to travel to the factory anymore, and thus, the Arab factory's kashrut certification lapsed. Because of Oslo, this personal (and potentially peace-inspiring) interaction between Arabs and Jews ceased.

So I realized that with the IDF doing nothing to ensure peace and safety, vigilantes had nothing else to do but to go solo. This still troubled me, and gave me tremendous discomfort. I had an inestimable amount of cognitive dissonance. The idea of individual vigilantes taking on the IDF's job troubled me terribly, but I had to admit that I didn't have a better idea. If only the IDF would do its job, then Goldstein wouldn't have to...

As regards Oslo, I had to admit: given the objective and indisputable fact that Oslo led directly to the loss of innocent human life, what else was Rabin but a murderer? If I'd assassinate a common street murderer, why should a political figure be any different? If Rabin were faceless anonymous man who murdered before my eyes, I'd surely murder him in return. Why should a political figure be any different?

Back to Goldstein: in fact, the muezzins (Muslim prayer callers) in Hebron had for days been yelling "Itbah al yahud" ("Slaughter on the Jews!"). Days before the Baruch Goldstein massacre, the IDF had told Goldstein (who was an IDF physician) to stockpile medical supplies, in expectation of an Arab massacre. Goldstein asked the IDF why they wouldn't stop the massacre in advance, and the IDF replied that Oslo tied their hands. Jewish lives were going to be sacrificed on the altar of Oslo. (Related in Moshe Feiglin, Where There are No Men.)

So thanks to Oslo, Goldstein was faced with the very real prospect of an Arab massacre of Jews, both by report of the IDF and of the muezzins in Hebron. Goldstein perhaps overreacted. But what else should he have done? The IDF told him that they'd do nothing to stop terrorism. Goldstein had no choice but to stand by silently, or to take matters into his own hands.

As for Rabin, I might add that by his own admission, he was directly responsible for the murder of all those aboard the Altalena. As related by Moshe Feiglin, Rabin proudly admitted that he was responsible for the Haganah's murder of those aboard the Altalena, because it was carrying weapons for the rival Irgun group. So Rabin was a common petty murderer, by his own explicit and proud admission. The only argument against assassinating him, then, is that practically, it did no good. Murdering him only made him a martyr and strengthened his cause. But were it not for this pragmatic consideration...

Rabin's Oslo was directly responsible for Goldstein's having to do what he did. In fact, we could say that Rabin is guilty of the deaths Goldstein caused. If it hadn't been for Oslo, then the IDF, not Goldstein, would have killed the terrorists. And obviously, if the IDF were to do the action instead, it'd have been able to investigate who to kill and how, how to avoid the deaths of innocent civilians, etc. Goldstein lacked an army and an investigative apparatus, so all he could do is "spray and pray" with an automatic rifle; he could not investigate individual targets or conduct searches of homes for weapons caches, etc. Had the IDF done its job, many innocent Arab lives might have been spared. So if Goldstein did anything wrong, the blame falls on Rabin who tied the IDF's hands, not Goldstein.

All this still troubles me. It sickens me to have to justify assassinations and massacres. I'm naturally a peaceful person; I used to wrestle, but I had to stop because even though I was skilled enough at it, I simply didn't have the heart for it, to hit another person. So for me to support Goldstein not only goes against what I'd like to believe, but it even goes against my basic personality. I'm a born pacifist. Golda Meir said, "We can perhaps forgive you for killing our children, but we cannot forgive you for forcing us to kill your children". For myself, I'd say, "I can perhaps forgive you for killing us, but I cannot forgive you for forcing me to justify Goldstein." I shouldn't have to wonder whether Goldstein was justified. It should be the easiest thing in the world for me to decry a man walking into a place of worship and shooting unarmed men. I shouldn't have to wonder whether that is justified. But the Arabs have stolen that innocence from me. The Arabs have forced me to side with Goldstein, and for that, I cannot forgive them.

(Do not misunderstand me. I'm not saying I would repeat any of these actions (G-d forbid), whether Amir's or Goldstein's. One can search everything I've ever written, and one could even search everything and I've ever said, and I guarantee, one will not hear a single utterance by me of advocacy to commit a second Goldstein massacre in another mosque, or advocacy to assassinate Livni or Olmert or Sharon or Netanyahu. Others - usually Israeli Leftists, in fact - have advocated the assassination of Israeli leaders (see Feiglin, Where There are No Men), but so far as I know (Feiglin, ibid.), no prominent right-wing Israelis, by contrast with the Left, have advocated violence against Israeli political figures, and neither will I. Similarly, while Baruch Marzel will celebrate Goldstein, I've never seen him advocate a repetition; I've only seen him stage protest marches through Arab villages. By contrast, Yeshayahu Leibowitz (of the Left) would refer to IDF soldiers as "Judeo-Nazis", and unless he was being hyperbolic with extremely poor taste, I can only assume that he was subtly hinting for IDF soldiers to be treated as Nazis should be. But as against this Leftist advocacy (or veiled suggestion) of violence, no one on the right, as far as I know, advocates a second Amir or Goldstein. Thank G-d.)

Update: "Ar." below in the comments informed me that Leibowitz was known to be flamboyant and bombastic, and use extreme language just to rile people up and push their buttons. If so, then Leibowitz's "Judeo-Nazi" slur would not have been an incitement to murder. Still, I wonder: if Leibowitz's language can be brushed off as hyperbolic, then perhaps a rightists's language of incitement (say, a call to murder Arabs) can also be viewed as potentially hyperbolic? What's good for the goose is good for the gander; if a leftist's extreme language is brushed off as hyperbolic and not meant seriously, then why not extend the same courtesy to the right?

26 comments:

rogueregime said...

It's hard to know where even to begin with this. "Evidence that Dr. Goldstein overreacted"!?! A "martyred hero"?!?

Baruch Goldstein walked into a mosque and machine-gunned 29 people to death who presented no immediate, physical danger to him or to anyone else. Another 150 people were wounded. To call mass-murder as mere "overreaction" and as being the actions of a "hero," is repulsive, disgusting and a shande for Jews -- and for human beings -- everywhere.

I remember the day this happened. I sat watching the news, stunned, feeling for the first time in my life truly ashamed to be a Jew.

I don't know what has happened to you in your life -- what experiences you've had or lessons learned -- to lead you to the belief that this behavior is acceptable, but I feel terrible for you.

Could I possibly be misreading your post?

Mikewind Dale said...

Rogueregime,

Sadly, no, you're not misreading my post.

I used to feel exactly as you do. I was not one iota less troubled by Goldstein than you are.

In fact, none of my basic core beliefs have changed. For example, in public high school, as an Orthodox Jew, I was a member of my school's Muslim Student Association. My views on non-Jews or Muslims or Arabs have not changed at all.

So if my basic core beliefs have not changed, how can I have gone from a repulsion and disgust for Goldstein (like yours) to support for him?

It is simple: I learned more about the facts on the ground in Israel.

I just added a lengthy update to my post, explaining all this.

Ar. (from Facebook) said...

I don't think you can justify the killing of civilians. Even if all those things are true, i.e. that there was a terrorist attack planned and that the IDF had warned Baruch Goldstein about it, to justify the killings you would have to demonstrate that it was those specific people in the mosque that were planning on carrying out terrorist activity. Otherwise there is absolutely no purpose to it and it is plain and pure terrorism. The only time killing civilians is justified is when they are not the targets but are necessary collateral damage. Otherwise you're killing civilians for the sake of killing civilians. That is what Hamas does (and also what the Irgun did in the 1930s 1940s i.e. placed bombs on Arab buses and in Arab markets and which I fundamentally disagree with).

I think you have to understand Leibowitz's comment based on his overall personality. I would in fact argue it was poor taste. But he was an extreme person, and he did not really care how his comments would be viewed. He definitely was not advocating violence against the IDF. He was the type of guy who liked to rile people up. In the introduction to Al Olam Umelo'o it says that one time he was in America and he gave a speech on Shabbat at a Zionist synagogue, and even after someone told him basically to watch his mouth he said (it was in the 70s) - Do you people really think Israel is so great? Watergate is nothing compared to what's going on in Israel. So basically, he liked to use extreme language. It also says in the introduction that he read the transcripts of the interviews there before they were published and sometimes changed things because even he thought what he said was too harsh. So you have to keep that in mind.

I think what he meant by the Judeo-Nazi comment was that some of the soldiers looked like they were enjoying power over other people for the sake of power. He of course was not a pacifist. He was a man of logic, and I think that ignoring his language, his opinions withstand scrutiny.

Mikewind Dale said...

Ar. (Aryeh?),

First, thanks for the clarification on Leibowitz.

That said, I think the morality of Goldstein's actions is far more nuanced than that.

I certainly agree with you, that for Hamas to deliberately attack civilians is unjust. But with Hamas, they're attacking civilians with no justification whatsoever. An unarmed civilian in Tel Aviv has nothing to do with a soldier in the West Bank. Blowing up buses full of civilians is in no wise equivalent to the Irgun and Lehi's attacking British soldiers during the British occupation.

By contrast, Goldstein's goal was to attack only terrorists. He probably reasoned that 9 out of 10 Arabs in the mosque were terrorists, and that any civilians who died would be like tragic but unavoidable collateral damage. I'm not saying I agree, but it's hard to condemn this logic as absolutely evil and unjust. There is some truth to it. When Ya'akov's sons killed everyone in Shekhem, he castigated them harshly and punished them both (scattering Levi and Shimon), but all the same, he did not accuse them of murder and have them put to death. Ya'akov recognized that the moral area in question was grey.

(Of course, Hamas and Fatah consider all of Israel, including Tel Aviv, to really belong to the Arabs. So I suppose every single Israeli in their eyes is an occupying soldier, whether or not he's carrying a gun at the time. Especially, Israel does have a draft, so any given Israeli in question either has or will at one point be(en) a soldier. If so, then Hamas is actually justified, in terms of the strict condition that only soldiers and not civilians be attacked. Hamas's error would not be that they are attacking civilians, since in a way, they are in fact attacking only soldiers. Their error instead would be that they are simply wrong that Israel is theirs. If I suddenly decide that Egypt belongs to me, and I start attacking Egyptians, my error is not so much which Egyptians I'm attacking (soldiers versus civilians), but rather, my error is that I'm attacking anyone at all in the first place. An offensive war is unjust and murderous, even if you kill only enemy soldiers and not a single civilian dies. Hamas is waging an offensive war on Israel, no different than Germany attacking Poland and France.)

rogueregime said...

http://rogueregime.blogspot.com/2009/12/assumptions-justifications-and-origins.html

Anonymous said...

Rogue regime wrote:

"Baruch Goldstein walked into a mosque and machine-gunned 29 people to death who presented no immediate, physical danger to him or to anyone else."

Or so claims the uninformed media and the convenient script of the Israeli govt.

Check the Shamgar report. They found guns in the mosque in the possession of peaceful arab worshippers who posed no physical danger.

Ar. said...

I agree with you that the error of Hamas is that they don't realize that the Jews have a right to be there in the first place. But even so, I see a difference between attacking civilians and attacking soldiers. To demonstrate, take a situation where it is absolutely certain that the people living on a land had no right to it, for example the Europeans in what is now the United States. They took land by force from the native Americans, and settled their people there. In some instances, the native Americans would massacre the entire population. I still say that that's wrong. It's immoral to kill innocent women, children and even men. They could have justifiably invaded, but once there was no more resistance, they had no right to kill people just living there.

The Irgun in fact not killed British soldiers. They placed bombs on Arab buses and in Arab markets, killing innocent Arabs. That, in my opinion, is no different than what Hamas does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks

Also, the reason why Leibowitz's comments should not be taken literally is because of his personality. If people on the right wing make extreme statements but normally they only say exactly what they mean, then there is no reason not to take them at their word. For example, Kahane undoubtedly meant what he said about a forced Arab expulsion. He also repeated over and over again, "Every Arab is a good Arab," meaning that there are no Arabs who would be happy with an Israeli state. So you cannot just look at the statements, you also have to look at the personality of the person who is making them.

Ar, said...

It should have read above

"The Irgun in fact not only killed British soldiers, but they also killed innocent Arabs"

Anonymous said...

Wikipedia, that's a real reliable source.

There was a time when there was a policy of reprisal against the arabs for their attacks on innocent Jews. (And pre-emption as well). It cannot be said that this in any way equates to hamas.

When the arabs ceased their attacks on Jews, the Irgun focused its operations solely on the British. It was only when the Arabs attacked did they attack back. And the Arabs did not discriminate between men women or children, so why do you pretend that they did?

Ar. said...

I never said that the Arabs discriminate between men, women, and children. I said the native Americans did not so discriminate, and that that was wrong. Attacking innocent civilians is always terrorism, no matter who does it first. Self defense is not terrorism, attacking civilians is. The reason why the claim that Israel is perpetuating a cycle of violence is fundamentally untrue is because Israel engages in self defense. If, on the other hand, after every Arab terrorist attack there was a Jewish terrorist attack, that would be a genuine cycle of violence. You don't fight random violence with random violence. You fight using self defense, or preemption, but never against civilians. That wouldn't be preemption, it would just be random violence. True, it was the Arabs who engaged in terrorism first, but then the Irgun committed the same actions. Why should there be a difference between terrorist activities just because one was committed first?

rogueregime said...

http://rogueregime.blogspot.com/2009/12/rabin-and-golstein-part-deux.html)

Yochanan said...

If the muezzin was saying "Itba7 AlYahud!" why didn't he just fire at the minaret?

I have this theory that Oslo wouldn't have been continued if Rabin hadn't been assassinated. Why?
Because if they didn't carry it out, people would think that it would be insulting his memory. Pissing on his grave, so to speak.

Mikewind Dale said...

Fire at the minaret? You think that a village of peace-loving Arabs would allow someone crying "Itbah al yahud" to live in their town? They all want peace and love with Israel, but they appoint Mr. Itbah al Yahud as their crier? Please. He was reflective of at least a sizable portion of the town, if not a majority.

It's impossible to know what would have happened had Rabin died naturally or retired or some such. All we know is that his assassination made him a martyr and encouraged furtherance of his policies.

Mikewind Dale said...

Everyone else: I'm waiting until I have time to very carefully read and reply.

Yochanan said...

Did I say they were all peace lovers?

No.

I thought since a minaret is a noticeable landmark, shooting at the muezzin would send a quick message.

It.ba7 al-BANG!

Sure he'd probably get shot by the locals, but isn't that what happened anyway?

Anonymous said...

" Attacking innocent civilians is always terrorism, no matter who does it first. Self defense is not terrorism, attacking civilians is. "

When your citizens are being attacked and reprisals are the only thing that will stop such attacks (and submitting to them and surrendering to them only encourages further attacks), suddenly reprisal attacks that also claim innocent victims ARE acts of self-defense. And yes, these reprisals DID have effect to stop the Arab attacks because they did not want to be hit back in the way they were willing to victimize the local Jews. This policy of reprisal explains the Jewish self-defense against Arabs for their many attacks (like the bombing the Arabs committed on the Jerusalem post building for example, at that time called palestine post, etc - only civilians there).

For some time, the 'authorities' (ie those Jewish statesman seen as "legitimate" in leadership role over the yishuv) were unwilling to engage in reprisal (policy which Jabotinsky and other fellow fighters urged them to adopt), but this policy to remain "defensive" became untenable when it became very clear that a lack of direct response encouraged more attacks by the Arabs.

The policy of reprisal is a nice summation of policy of not only the "Jewish underground," but also the Haganah who in time joined up with such policy and employed it themselves with the "field forces" under Yitzhak Sadeh in response to Arab terror of 1936-39. There was a time that haganah (also "illegal" but more recognized as an official Jewish leadership by the British - and by the Jewish agency who in ways controlled it), was opposed to going on the offensive and preferred only defensive measures. But it is historically inaccurate to claim that this was always the case, to pretend that this policy never changed, and to "blame" all of the heroic reprisal attacks on the Irgun and/or Lehi. The haganah also deserves some credit. They were not PC peaceniks either despite their greater hesitance or political leanings and at certain times their persecution of the "underground" for selfish political gain.

The founding of Israel took place through blood and sacrifice and much suffering. ALL of the factions fought, and all of them engaged in deeds which ignorant people could today label as "terror" but which at the time were utter necessity and not at all motivated by a desire to engage in "terrorism" or to immorally 'terrorize' anyone. Nor were the acts motivated by "hate" either of Arabs or Britishmen, or any other ethnic group.

For those who find these methods offensive and objectionable, there is no abstaining party of "clean hands" that did not engage in them in founding the state, and there is no "responsible objectors" they can rely upon to praise the founding of Israel (perhaps the hashomer hatzair party? Of course the state doesn't exist today because of their fighting philosophies). For those who label the Irgun as "terrorists," Ben Gurion was also a "terrorist" by any utilization of consistent logic, and such a person has no reason to praise the haganah the idf the founding of the state or anything else. But Judaism does not require pacifism, and by embracing that unavoidable fact, we have every reason to praise those heroic men who acted in self-sacrifice on the behalf of our entire people.

Ar. said...

To Anonymous:

I do not believe that the reprisals were really about self defense. I think they were more about revenge. I think this way because, logically, reprisal attacks do nothing to stop the next terror attack. Kahane said (or something along these lines) - The Arabs are going to have to learn that for every Arab attack there will be a Jewish counter-attack. But will that really stop the Arab terror attacks? Of course not, because it is obvious that the Palestinian leadership does not care about any innocent Arabs that get killed. That is Hamas's specific goal, to get Israelis to kill innocent Arabs. Of course, in those cases, i.e. when Hamas fires rockets from civilian neighborhoods, any innocent Arabs that die are collateral damage. But I think that the scenario was the same before the state was created as well. I.e. it wouldn't matter to the Arabs how many of their civilians died as a result of their carrying out terror, as long as they get to keep on killing Jews. Did the reprisals really have the effect of stopping terror? But there is a way to stop terror, which is to employ self defense or preemption against the people carrying out that terror.

Even if neither Irgun, Lehi, nor the Haganah had clean hands in this, what does that really matter? That doesn't change the fact that Israel has a right to the land. All that's required is to say - we were wrong in the past, we're sorry, but we don't do that anymore. We've grown up. You haven't (i.e. the Arabs).

Revenge doesn't accomplish anything. It just makes everybody on each side angrier as more and more people get killed. (This is similar to Mafia vendettas.) It is not logically justifiable as self defense. So how is it right, and what benefit is there to engage in it?

Anonymous said...

"I do not believe that the reprisals were really about self defense. I think they were more about revenge. "

That is not how Begin described their motivation, nor was it what the united forces' policy was based on. You may have an opinion that you pulled from thin air because you FEEL that way, but that is not an opinion that describes the events in a historically accurate way. After the announcement that the British would in time evacuate the mandate, the attacks from Arabs on civilians became incessant. The "defensive" posture failed to defend against attacks, the pressure built up until the only reasonable response that could be mustered was the resprisal policy.

"I think this way because, logically, reprisal attacks do nothing to stop the next terror attack."

Logically according only to your fantasy and imagination. The reprisal attacks did calm down the Arab offensive, and the frequency with which they employed their bombs and murders decreased due to the guarantee of (deadly)consequences. You may not imagine this would occur, you may not FEEL that it should happen that way, but that is what historically took place.

Anonymous said...

"But I think that the scenario was the same before the state was created as well."

You *think, but you don't know. A recurring problem, it seems. You can't just 'make stuff up' and insist that you're right.

Anonymous said...

"Even if neither Irgun, Lehi, nor the Haganah had clean hands in this, what does that really matter? That doesn't change the fact that Israel has a right to the land. All that's required is to say - we were wrong in the past, we're sorry, but we don't do that anymore. We've grown up. You haven't (i.e. the Arabs)."

This is completely nonsensical. If we have a "right" to the land, then why were we wrong for asserting that right, and why should we apologize? The only way to defend that right was through bloodshed. If we did not do so, our rights were violated, our people annihilated. Plain and simple.

There were countless broken promises from the British, evil plans by the British to set the Arabs against our population, naive (and proven vain) political hopes of the Jewish agency, and very clear statements from the Arabs, which would prevent any Jewish state from coming into being if not for our decision to shed blood to bring it about. The Arabs made their statements not only in writing, in print, and in diplomatic declarations, but also with riots, bombs, knives, and gun attacks. We were not wrong for defending ourselves. Violence was the only way to do so. There is nothing to apologize about, and there is no one to apologize to.

That even the Haganah recognized the necessity of these "attacks" against the Arabs is proof to even the most liberal Jew that there was no other way to go about things and for the Jewish people to survive.

The fact is, without those bold moves - violent moves which shed much blood - there would be no Jewish state today. If we have a right to that land and had a right to form a state, then we had a right to do what was necessary to make that happen. And with God's help we see that the heroic deeds did not go unrewarded.

If you say we are morally compelled to apologize for our survival, then we also better evacuate the land and give it as a gift to the terrorists we apologize to (God forbid). Because if we have to apologize for that, then we have no right to be here.

Ar. said...

According to

http://irgun.totallyexplained.com/

and

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/defense.html

the reprisal attacks ceased (that is, attacks against innocent Arabs, which is all we are debating) at around the beginning of World War II. That is also, yes, around when the Arab terrorist attacks subsided. But the question is why did they subside? Is it really possible that the killing of a couple of hundred Arabs by the Irgun would make them realize that they were wrong all along, and that they would now have to accept the Jewish state? Obviously not, as they resumed their attacks in 1947, right before the Arab armies attacked the newly created Israel. And if the reprisals were really effective in their alleged goal, which was to get the Arabs to stop attacking Jews, then they would have resumed in 1947. But they didn't.

So I think it's pretty safe to say that the reason the Arab attacks ceased was World War II. The Jewish organizations were largely involved in the joint goals of helping the British fight against Hitler and forcing them out of then Palestine (both far better goals then killing innocent people), and most of the Arabs were aligned on the other side - witness Haj Amin al-Husseini's call for a holy war against Britain - http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_during_ww2.php.

The question therefore is still valid as to whether the reprisals really accomplished anything (because of three points: the reprisal attacks didn't resume in 1947 when Arab attacks resumed, the Arab attacks resumed, and the fact that the Arabs were largely more interested in having Hitler win and the British lose). But even if it is possible to say that the reprisal attacks did accomplish anything (which I am not conceding) I still would say it would be wrong to kill innocent people. I don't think that is a radical statement, that is that it is wrong to kill innocent people.

My statement above

- "Even if neither Irgun, Lehi, nor the Haganah had clean hands in this, what does that really matter? That doesn't change the fact that Israel has a right to the land. All that's required is to say - we were wrong in the past, we're sorry, but we don't do that anymore. We've grown up. You haven't (i.e. the Arabs)."

can only be nonsensical if you subscribe to the notion that the end justifies the means. I believe that even if the end is valid - which here is the creation of Israel - the means also have to be proper to achieve that end. For example, I believe that the dropping of the atom bomb was wrong, for the simple fact that the entire purpose of it was to kill innocent Japanese. Yes, it had the end of ending World War II and saving American lives, but through the means of killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people. So, here, it would never be proper to kill innocent Arabs, even for the sake of the creation of Israel.

It is not a matter of whether there is anyone to apologize to or whether there is anyone to accept our apology. The point is just to stand up for what's right, for truth's sake. We shouldn't need a person to talk to on the other side to be able to stand up for the truth on our own. And what the apology would be for would not be Israel's existence, but the improper (and I think ineffective) means to achieve that existence.

rogueregime said...

http://rogueregime.blogspot.com/2009/12/rabin-and-goldstein-one-more-time.html

May the Heroes of Irgun be blessed said...

Are you trying to say that the Irgun committed attacks against Arabs because they were secretly blood-thirsty animals who craved Arab victims that they could make passover matzahs out of to serve to their children blood soaked matzah of the "inferior arab race"? (Btw, arabs are of the same race as all Jews and the majority of the irgun was sephardic which is even closer related). Aside from the fact that what you say here is ahistorical, hypothetical ignorant conjecture, the antisemitic overtones are rampant and alarming. Why not consult the reasons the Irgun gave for their own actions, what the members and leaders of Irgun believed in, etc etc? It is not a Jewish version of Hamas. But if you never read about it, you will never know, and you will just assume the worst (for what reason?).

If you will not deal with historical fact and instead wish to cast uncivilized/barbaric/bloodlust motive on groups you dislike, who engaged in the necessary deeds that other so-called "proper" (selfish) Jews would never have been willing to engage in for the survival of our people, you are simply blowing smoke into the wind. Real debate centers on facts and reality. Not your wishful thinking or uninformed opinions/conjecture about percentages and other imagined reasons.

"can only be nonsensical if you subscribe to the notion that the end justifies the means."

Ends do not justify means. A "means" - yes, the means itself -is justified not by some vague "universal ethics" that does not exist (except in your mind and your liberal debate class), which you imagine in your mind as somehow binding on the world's people (even though no people observes it). A means is either justified or unjustified based on the only binding ethics presented to mankind - That of the Torah. And 'ends' can only be justified by its means if the means itself is permitted and encouraged by the halacha, which is the active implementation of Jewish law in the physical world. You have no argument as to why these attacks were not justified, especially within the prism of self-defense. The only thing you can appeal to is the modern western collegiate underdeveloped stupidity which says that any killing is wrong, and especially any killing of a so-called "innocent" ci-villain civilian is wrong (how you define this term is of course open to interpretation although you would like it to be anyone not currently wearing a battle uniform). This has appeal only to those of warped and pitiful mind, who lack an understanding of the history of their people, who lack the proper love for their people and their God, and who have utter disregard for Jewish law. To such people who invent their own ethics wholecloth, I can only roll my eyes and feel pity for them.

Ar. said...

I think you are engaging too much in personal attacks. I do not see how anything I said can be taken as antisemitic, unless you take as antisemitic any claim that Jews in some period of history were wrong in what they have done. I don't see that as antisemitic, I see that as honest. Besides, I support the Irgun in their other actions, all I am arguing about is the killing of innocent civilians. What we are talking about is the throwing of bombs into bus stations, restaurants, etc. No one in their right mind can say that those kinds of attacks are directed against anything other than civilians. I know that the Irgun justified theses reprisal actions as self defense. The questions are was that the true motivation (I am not going to take the Irgun at their word for actions they themselves participated in) and whether the actions can be justified anyway. I would think that any person should be able to realize that throwing bombs into crowds of innocent people violates yes, universal ethics, and yes, perhaps even Torah ethics. The Gemara says, if somebody comes to kill you, kill him first. It does not say however, "if somebody comes to kill you, kill innocent members of the group that is coming to kill you."

May ALL the Heroes of Irgun be blessed said...

"The questions are was that the true motivation"

Just admit it. You think they were bloodthirsty criminal racist Jewish killers who wanted to make minced-matzah-meal out of "inferior-race blood." So we can know where you're coming from and move on instead of having a pointless back and forth.

War is a serious business. Their motives were laid out clearly for all to see. Their intentions were laid out clearly for all to see. It is only conspiracy theorists and subscribers of the "protocols" who wish to ascribe an "unknown" motive to them so that they can call them "Jewish terrorists." Just get over it.

May ALL the Heroes of Irgun be blessed said...

"The Gemara says, if somebody comes to kill you, kill him first."

This gemara is not speaking about a state of war, nor how we engage with the enemy in a state of war. So why bring that here?

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