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Friday, August 7, 2009

Judgmentalism in Orthodoxy - The Shiddukh Crisis

Naamah, in the comments to her Fun Link for Tu B'Av, writes,
Ah, this is all just getting me primed for a rant I'm going to do at some point on sexuality and Orthodox Judaism.
Well, I'll leave that to her, and I'm now beating her to the other side of the so-called "shiddukh crisis", so nya nya nya. :P ;)

Here, Jesse Ackler complains about judgmentalism in Orthodoxy, specifically regarding shiddukhim. He writes,
BACKGROUND:
I was encouraged to attend the upcoming SYAS Nachamu singles event by my own shadchanim. I submitted an application, only to have it quickly rejected, the reasons given being the personal biases of a person or persons on what was referred to as the Vetting Board.

The transcript of this email correspondence is below (all names have been removed other than my own to protect involved parties):

(1)
Dear Jesse,
Thank you for taking interest in this year's Shabbat Nachamu Weekend. Unfortunately, we are not able to accept your application. This event is geared towards singles who are modern orthodox machmir or yeshivish/black hat.
(2)
Saw You at Sinai/YU Connects Staff,
Please have someone contact me about this, as I am listed as Modern Orthodox and this must be some kind of computer glitch.

Thanks,
Jesse Ackler
(3)
Jesse,
This is not a glitch. Anyone that applies to the weekend has to be vetted by our matchmakers. According to the matchmakers, you are not appropriate for our weekend because you are not "Machmir." This is not based on the label that you chose for yourself, but rather based on your information in your profile. Using that information, the matchmakers felt that you were not appropriate for our event. Once they make a decision, they send out an email to advise the applicant, in this case, you.

I am sorry that this weekend will not work out for you, but there will be a "Back to Camp Weekend" run on Labor Day Weekend, which will be for a much broader range of people, which would be more appropriate for you.
(4)
Saw You at Sinai/YU Connects Staff,
This is hilarious. I know people who are attending the nachamu weekend I wouldn't even consider frum!

I would really like to know by what standards someone determines that someone else is machmir or liberal or whatever.

I guess davening 3 times a day, being shomer shabbos, shomer kashrus and shomer negiyah isn't enough.

I am definitely going to spread the word about this!

Jesse Ackler
(5)
Jesse,

The fact that you would even consider threatening us proves how correct I was for not letting you onto the event: "I am definitely going to spread the word about this!"

Go ahead. You will merely be spreading around that WE do not consider YOU to be truly Machmir. Which for you, I guess, is ok, seeing as you don't really care about the things Machmir people care about (at least according to your profile):

In our humble opinion, someone who:
1. Doesn't care about his wife covering her hair
2. Doesn't care if his wife wears pants
3. Will date a CONSERVADOX girl
4. Doesn't care if his wife eats in non-Kosher restaurants
...We don't consider Machmir.

Maybe you have a different use of the term Machmir or more likely you should consider looking inside yourself (or at least your profile) before you get upset at how other people (who don't know you) judge who you are.

Oh, and by the way, about people being "Frum" or not: Does being "Frum" mean that you threaten someone else because you are unhappy with what the other person did?

Best of luck in finding whatever it is you are looking for.
Saw You at Sinai/YU Connects Staff
(6)
You had better believe I would tell everyone I can about these seemingly discriminatory and closed-minded practices based on subjective values from I don't know where! I want people to know where their money is going, and why they might not meet their bashert because of it.

What you and these shadchanim you mention don't seem to understand is that with the statements you list below below I was not judged on things that I myself am doing. These are things that my prospective spouse is doing. I don't know what your upbringing or what part of Brooklyn you or these shadchanim you are referring to are from. I am a baal teshuva for more than 15 years, and I have learned from dating for more than 10 years that if a woman currently considers herself conservadox or currently eats fish in a non-kosher restaurant that does not automatically disqualify her from dating me if I feel she wants to grow in her practice. Otherwise I would not go out with her in the first place!

Oh, and by the way, I was encouraged to come to the event by a few of my own SYAS shadchanim, all of whom I know personally for many years. It's funny that these nameless shadchanim on this "vetting board" who have probably never met me are so ready to disqualify me when my own shadchanim wanted me to come.

Jesse Ackler


I've never interacted with SYAS personnel, so the following support of Jesse Ackler by me is rather one of general principle, not specifically regarding SYAS per se.

I've learned over the past three years of yeshiva that the biggest cause of intolerance is ignorance. There are things that a few years ago, or sometimes even a few months or days ago, I considered heretical, and which I have since learned have far more basis in halakhah than I ever dreamed of. I remember a few months ago reading Rabbi Marc Angel's new novel, The Search Committee, and being appalled at the justification Rebbetzin Sultana Mercado therein gives for her own lack of head covering - her justification sounded like straight Reform/Conservative Judaism. I then learned that Mahara"m Alakshar from 15th century Spain and Rabbi Yosef Messas of Morocco and Rabbi Isaac S. Hurewitz of America (who was unimpeachably Orthodox - his criticism of an opinion of Rabbi Louis Ginzberg's was limited to ad hominem attacks on the latter's being Conservative) would all fully endorse a woman's not covering her hair, notwithstanding the protests of the Arukh ha-Shulhan and Mishnah Berurah, who both explicitly reject the logic put forth by the first three authorities.

Similarly, I was flabbergasted when I saw that Rabbi Haim David Halevi, a scion of the traditional Judeo-Spanish Turkish Sephardic form of Judaism, says that Beit Hillel prevailed over Beit Shammai because the former was prone to leniency and making halakhah easier out of sympathy for the human condition - Reform and Conservative often say this, but Rabbi Halevi, the Chief Rabbi of Tel Aviv, said this as well!

So I've become far more open to women who do things like leave their hair uncovered, wear pants, are not shomer negiah, etc. It doesn't mean that I necessarily agree with everything they do and would do it myself or advocate its being done by others, but I understand that a lot of what they do does have real halakhic basis, even if it relies on minority opinions and the like. I may not rely on these things myself, but these women have real halakhic basis, and one cannot impugn their piety and religiosity; they DO have standards.

I'm sick of all this standards measurement. My rabbi tells me of when Ha-Gaon Rabbi Yehuda Herzl Henkin was asked about the hekhsher of the wedding he was at. He threw down his fork in anger and said, "Look, the bride and groom are frum Jews. Do you think they'd feed me treif? I don't care what the hekhsher is."

Rabbi Dr. Eliezer Berkovits made some very controversial rulings in his day, and his teacher, Ha-Gaon Rabbi Yehiel Weinberg was asked about whether Rabbi Berkovits was still Orthodox. Rabbi Weinberg said that frankly, Rabbi Berkovits's rulings concerned him greatly, but all the same, Rabbi Weinberg said, Rabbi Berkovits's yirat shamayim was second to none, and he was surely an Orthodox rabbi who made all his controversial rulings l'shem shamayim, and that he was an Orthodox rabbi in good standing. Remember that Rabbi Weinberg said that Rabbi Berkovits's rulings *greatly* disturbed him.

In the Judeo-Spanish world, no one was ever so concerned with judging others. Everyone, observant and not, coexisted in one community, and everyone was able to live with everyone else and accept the same rabbi. People weren't concerned with judging others; some were more observant than others, some were more pious than others, but everyone was a Jew, and most people still were mostly observant, and that was enough.

As Daniel Elazar writes in Can Sephardic Judaism be Reconstructed?,
Sephardic Judaism as it developed in Spain was not like the "post-Reformation" Judaism of modern Europe and the United States divided into Reform, Conservative or Orthodox. First of all, it did not involve the kind of rupture with tradition that characterized Reform. Nor did it turn tradition into something frozen, or worse, reshaped by a deliberate ideology of rigidity, as did ultra-Orthodoxy. Nor did it allow the kind of institutional divisions that ultimately led to more deep-seated ruptures as with Conservatism. In part this was because medieval conditions were different from modern ones and in part because the culture of the Mediterranean world is different from that of northern Europe. … [T]he fact of Sephardic Jewry being Mediterranean played a very important role. Thus we see today that in the Mediterranean countries the Protestant approach to religion with its search for consistency between belief and action continues to do poorly. As a rule, Mediterranean peoples believe that they must formally be faithful to the traditions of their fathers although reserving to themselves the right to determine how they individually will maintain those traditions. In contemporary times, this has become the way in which many Sephardim conduct their lives. Today there are more than a few Sephardim who eat every kind of halakhic abomination while providing support for the most ultra-Orthodox Sephardic yeshivot (rather than more "modern" institutions) and who regularly visit (with checkbook in hand) wonder-working rabbis of the old school to obtain their blessings.
Whereas Ashkenazim will tend to form different congregations based on ideology and practice (for example, Hassidic and Litvish and Modern Orthodox and Reform, etc. etc.), Elazar further notes,
Contrast this with a typical Sephardic congregation. It will be composed of people of all levels of observance, from black-hatted yeshiva students to people who think of themselves as secular but enjoy attending services from time to time. In the congregation all are equal. No one is asked how much or how little he observes. Sephardim assume that all people want to be traditional, only some people need greater degrees of help. That Sephardic attitude, which is typically Mediterranean, runs against the grain of the Ashkenazi pattern where people have to declare their religious ideology and form of religious behavior to fit into one community or another within Orthodoxy as well as between Orthodox and non-Orthodox.
Similarly, as Elazar notes elsewhere (The Special Character of Sephardi Tolerance),
Sephardim are noted for and pride themselves on being less fanatic than Ashkenazim in virtually all matters, especially religion. They certainly are not among the militant, black garbed Jews who throw stones at vehicles on the Sabbath and refuse to serve in the army. Sephardim are often bewildered by the Ashkenazic pursuit of humrot (new and more difficult halakhic refinements), because they have traditionally sought to balance the requirements of observance with those of living in order to achieve a form of religious expression that takes into consideration the whole human being, to encourage and cultivate the range of human attributes.

It is difficult for Sephardim to understand the isolationist trend that is dominant among so many Orthodox Ashkenazim, who see the salvation of Judaism only in separating it from those who do not meet current religious standards, which seem to be always moving to the right. Sephardim see no hope or virtue in isolation; to them, the result is a warping of Jews and a distortion of Judaism. Sephardim always have sought to balance their lives both as Jews and as a part of a larger human society. Isolation is not and was not a Sephardic goal -- that would have been a violation of their sense of proportion and balance. Rather, they seek to accept involvement with the larger world and its challenges. Historically, in the world in which most Sephardim lived, there was little occupation and segregation between Jews and non-Jews and often little residential segregation. Living and working together prevented the development of an isolationist spirit.


Rabbi Jacob Reischer was asked about some Jews who mostly kept kosher, but who relied on some questionable leniencies, and sometimes cut a few corners in kashrut. Rabbi Reischer, writing in a traditional Eastern European setting in 1719, three hundred years ago, said that it is more important to be lenient and let all Jews eat at each others' tables, than to be strict and divide ourselves via kashrut. To quote Professor Menachem Friedman (Life Tradition and Book Tradition in the Development of Ultra Orthodox Judaism; cf. his The Market Model and Religious Radicalism):
A good example of this is the incident cited by R. Jacob Reischer (1719, Yoreh De'ah, cap. 58). In one of the communities, the rabbis ruled that meat brought from the smaller communities of the surrounding villages was not kosher because the slaughterers in those places were thought not to know enough and/or not to be careful enough, by the stricter standards of the Jewish community. R. Reischer unequivocally rejects this approach, but not because he considered those slaughterers to be outstanding scholars. He admits that his position might be considered "lenient," but he defends it on the basis of the principle of the cohesion of the traditionally religious community, which might be adversely affected by the disqualification of the village slaughterers. "It is fitting that all the Jewish people be unified in the matter of eating and drinking so as not to cause in their own midst a rift like that which separates them from the others [the Gentiles]; we should not multiply separate groups." There is no doubt that R. Reischer's approach represents a deeply rooted Jewish tradition.
This doesn't mean we have NO standards and eat ANYTHING, but it means we ought to be a bit lax and "go with the flow" a bit, have some tolerance.

I then saw Hard to Match:
...

[T]here is, I believe, a danger inherent in assessing the religiosity of others. Such deliberations often rely on the use of externalities and shorthand signifiers, while real metrics of religiosity—if this is indeed something that can be “measured”—are always more complicated and more contradictory than anything that can be checked off a list. Undoubtedly, there will be those who adhere to the social standards of strict religiosity but behave differently in private. There will be those whose practices and beliefs defy easy categorization; perhaps there will be two people whose observance might vary, but whose core inner values and desires align.

...


I also loved what I saw here, responding to Jesse Ackler:
Jesse - I completely agree with you and I am disgusted by this type of attitude in the Orthodox dating world. It's what actually led me to remove myself a little bit from the orthodox dating world and am now open to conservadox or traditional women. I believe this is a fight we must make as it is destroying our community.

Ben Rabizadeh
CEO, Frumster LLC


---------------------------------------------------------------------

Another matter (and here, I might very well be stepping on Naamah's feet, so nya nya nya):

Ms. Aliza Hausman points us to the documentary "Unattached".

Much of what I saw in that video was simply pathetic. There, you have young unmarried men and women commenting on how they already had all their criteria down pat (desired height, weight, hair and eye color, etc.), and they - both men and women - comment on how few marvelously attractive people there are to date. Is marriage really about getting the right eye color and number on the scale? This is pathetic.

My mother used to always tell my brother and me that whatever we do in life, she'll be proud, as long as we enjoy it. She'd add that "even if you become a car mechanic!", she'd be proud. And guess what? That's exactly what my brother became; he loved cars and car magazines, and so he became a car mechanic. He was offered education to become an airplane mechanic, and he was told that he'd make $100,000 entry-level, but he rejected the offer, saying that he loved cars, period. To my brother, money didn't matter.

I don't recall my brother ever dating an unattractive woman, so I cannot be sure, but as far as I can tell, he's similarly unjudgmental about looks. Before I became religious, my brother and I used to joke and comment all the time about how attractive various women were. We'd comment on Jennifer Lopez and Mariah Carey videos and oggle Vida Guera in the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition, and my brother will still tell me how awesome a given girlfriend of his looks, and he'll still try to get me to oggle swimsuit issues and women in music videos with him. Nevertheless, this was/is all in jest, a display of machismo and masculinity. I don't recall my brother ever truly judging a woman for being unattractive, and I don't recall his ever evincing the slightest bit of actual deep-seated materialism in this regard. When bragging about how hot his girlfriend was/is, his tone was/is always of the boasting vainglorious sort, that he was simply showing off almost humorously, the same way one might brag to his friend that he beat the friend in a given sports game or bet. I believe I have every reason to believe that in truth, he'd be just as happy to date a non-attractive woman, as long as her personality and interests were compatible with his, just as in truth, a friendship is not threatened when one is beaten in football, even though previously, one was boasting about how no one could beat him in that game. Similarly, I'm sure that if my brother were to suddenly become rich, he'd brag and show off, even though he rejected an offer to be able to earn three times what he presently earns. It is all for show, all a game; in truth, my mother raised my brother and me to know that neither money nor physical appearance were anything to be concerned with.

So any singles who are otherwise, I have only contempt for their pettiness and immaturity.

21 comments:

ilanadavita said...

Good post Michael.

Ben-Yehudah said...

B"H

I don't like labels either.

However, isn't it possible they were trying to find people will have more chances of being compatible?

Next time, perhaps they will have an M/O mahmir - M/O - Conservadox get together.

The time after that, they could have an even broader group of people getting together.

They do want to provide what their clients are looking for, no?

Maybe their clients expressed very focused and discriminatory {word used on purpose} views about who they're looking for.

I do think they should have at least one event with a more diverse group represented there.

Many times, both from women and men, I have heard about people marrying someone who they never thought they'd marry {ie. not matching the qualities on their lists}.

So, such a diverse event should take place for practical reasons if nothing else.

Dude, "not worried about if your wife covering here hair?" I don't think too many people would consider that "mahmir."

Mikewind Dale said...

First "Google" became a verb, and now Twitter is taking over. Anyway...

@Ilana-Davita Thanks!

@Ben-Yehudah I think it all comes down to that passage I quoted about being being too complex to categorize. The fact is, most people cannot sure exactly what they want, and they write off too many people with overly strict standards. Blogger Shimshonit doesn't cover her hair, but she is completely frum in every other way (I've eaten Shabbat by her). Rabbi Soloveitchik's wife also didn't cover her hair, and while he explicitly disagreed with her, he said it wasn't worth divorcing over. Luckily Shimshonit's husband and Rabbi Soloveitchik didn't immediately write off such women as not being in the correct category.

So I completely agree with you that likely, the clients themselves are being too picky, and in any case, that the hosts should have more broad and diverse groups.

It's nice to see we agree on something for once! ;)

Ben-Yehudah said...

The hair issue is another issue we can debate.

It wasn't worth divorcing over, but it wasn't right what she did.

See the Aruch HaShulhan on this very issue,...regarding the town of women where they did not cover there hair.

The whole issue of not covering a woman's hair is two-fold:

1. Assimilation, influence from Western goyim,..JUST like sheitels.

2. Feminism,...gaivah. Refusal to accept that the Torah supports differential gender roles.

Anonymous said...

What I find hilarious is this: "Maybe you have a different use of the term Machmir or more likely you should consider looking inside yourself (or at least your profile) before you get upset at how other people (who don't know you) judge who you are."

For God's sake, that's the entire problem - that people who don't know you judge who you are! This is true irony.

Mikewind Dale said...

AMEN! Maybe others should stop looking into you and judging! The irony is indeed incredible; thank you for this observation.

Naamah said...

This is just crazy and is exactly part of my fear in joining the Orthodox world. I know I'll never pass the judgment rendered before people even meet me.

I still don't know why they would exclude our friend Jesse because he is willing to accept variances in practice among the women he dates. Perhaps he would ideally like to find a woman who covers her hair, only eats in kosher restaurants, and doesn't wear pants - and maybe he would have found her had he been allowed to come to the event!

This does give me a little more hope for myself however...if the standards are simply that a woman has to wear skirts, keep kosher, and cover her hair, I'm in! Makes me wonder what all these labels actually mean though; I know quite a few women who do all those things that for other reasons would probably not consider themselves machmir. People are more than a list of their practices.

Naamah said...

Curious to find out what the actual definition of machmir is, I found this in a Google search:

http://media.www.yucommentator.com/media/storage/paper652/news/2003/04/10/EditorialsopEd/From-The.Soy.President.Josh.Goldman-581089-page3.shtml

It seems that the article is criticizing the use of the term "machmir" as an attempt to stereotype Modern Orthodox Jews of the more observant variety. However, in doing so, they malign "liberal" Modern Orthodox Jews, which brings us right back to the problem of labeling and judging others before getting to know them. Since when does "liberal" have to mean someone who is lax in their observance? People can have ideas and beliefs that would make them "liberal" but still be punctilious in their observance of Jewish law.

Mikewind Dale said...

Naamah,

Thank you for that link. I can think of two possibilities for what people are thinking here. Perhaps since you live in NYC, you can do some research and find out the Johnny Q. Public of Orthodoxy thinks?

Either...

(1) They're not concerned here with hashkafah (weltanschauung) at all. Practice is the concern and the only concern, and it's simply that we have some unfortunate nomenclature: "liberal" really means "lax", and "mahmir" (מחמיר) (strict) really means "maqpid" (מקפיד) (punctilious). If so, then practice and level of commitment, not belief, is what people are concerned with. If so, then your wearing skirts and keeping kosher, with genuine commitment no less, would put you in the mahmir category, notwithstanding your (and my!) crazy hashkafot. The nomenclature is inaccurate, but once you figure out what it really means, you're set.

(2) Alternatively, they are concerned with hashkafah as well. Everything I just said in (1) above is true, but additionally, they mistakenly conflate this with belief. In other words, people wrongly assume that those who are "liberal" in belief are also "lax" in practice, and that those who are "mahmir" (or more accurately, maqpid) in practice are also conservative in belief. If so, then they are of course completely wrong, but people like the two of us are the ones who will be hurt in the cross-fire.

I agree with you that there ought to be no correspondence assumed between belief and practice here, if belief is either liberal or conservative and practice is either punctilious and committed or not. There is no contradiction between liberal beliefs and punctilious observance, or conservative beliefs and lax practice. I hope that the truth is possibility (1) above, that people are concerned with practice and are simply using inaccurate nomenclature. If (2) above is the truth, then I am deeply concerned.

Naamah said...

Unfortunately I think the tendency is towards option number 2. I haven't polled people I know to see who would call themselves machmir, but from what I seem to pick up conservative practice is generally affiliated with conservative haskafah.

As far as laxness in practice goes, I think there are quite a number of individuals on the UWS who would fall into the category that people fail to consider, those who are lax in practice but conservative in belief. These are the people who don't put on tefillin every day and sleep with their girlfriends but believe strongly that women should never be rabbis (or whatever you want to call them) or be allowed to touch the Torah. Most people probably fall somewhere in the middle, and MO-Machmir and MO-Liberal seem to represent two ends of a spectrum.

Mikewind Dale said...

So if you're liberal in hashkafah, they assume you're lax in practice, and if you're conservative in hashkafah, they assume you're machmir (strict), by which they really mean maqpid (punctilious) in practice.

In other words: like Christians, we're judging based on belief, not practice.

This isn't how things used to be; see this article by Professor Menachem Kellner, reviewing a wonderful book by Professor Marc Shapiro.

I was talking this Shabbat to a rabbi I very much like and respect. I raised your conversion issue (anonymously), saying to him that I personally accept your conversion as kosher. He responded that notwithstanding your and your rabbis' observance, the mere self-declaration of Conservative invalidates someone. I indignantly responded that G-d is nonsectarian and nondenominational, but the rabbi responded that nevertheless, the self-classification of Conservative is to deliberately remove oneself from the fold, notwithstanding one's perfectly halakhic observance. I still held my ground, and I pulled out the guns, citing Professor Kellner (from the above URL) and Rabbi Haim Hirschensohn (cited in the introduction to Shapiro's book reviewed by Kellner: Rabbi Hirschensohn says that in the Prophets, we see emphasis on practice, not creed, and so, he(Hirschensohn) says, one's personal beliefs one make one a heretic only when they affect practice. For example, atheism or denial of the Sinaicity of the Torah is heresy only if it is manifested practically in one's deeds.) We were left at an impasse.

Mikewind Dale said...

Regarding your conversion, I have now debated with Rabbi Harry Maryles, here:

>> Actually, given that she says her
>> own Conservative rabbis are
>> shomrei ha-mitzvot, and thus
>> kosher eidim, and given that her
>> mikvah was kosher, I see no reason
>> to reject her Conservative
>> conversion.
>>
>> Me

> Not so simple. What if they believe
> in Apikurus like Documentary
> Hypothesis? This is not an uncommon
> belief in C Judaism. One can be
> very ritually observant and still
> be a heretic.
> R' Maryles

Maybe her rabbis are totally frum in hashkafah. And even they're not, maybe they're merely skeptical and doubting (as opposed to certain), and so we can apply Rav Kook following Rabbi Nahman miBreslov that this is not true heresy (cited in Professor Shapiro's Limits, Introduction). And even if their heresy is definitive and certain, maybe we can rely on Rabbi Haim Hirschensohn (Shapiro, ibid.) that heresy is only true heresy if it manifests in actual deed (in this case, it has not). And even if we don't rely on Rabbi Hirschensohn, maybe we can rely on Professor Menachem Kellner (here) that before the Haskalah, poskim didn't rely on the 13 Principles, and were much more latitudinarian in tolerating heretics as members of the community in good standing. And even if we don't rely on this, maybe we can rely on the Meiri's interpretation of ger she-nitgayer bein ha-nokhrim, viz. that a gentile who immerses him or herself without any witnesses at all is bediavad a kosher ger.

So we have not merely a safeiq or a safeiq-safeiqa; we rather have a five-fold safeiq. I think that's enough to be lenient, right?

Ed said...

R' Mike, you recently posted on R'Harry's blog that "Rabbi Joseph Messas of Morocco and Rabbi Isaac Hurewitz in America both ruled that a woman has no obligation at all to cover her hair today".

Could I have more info about that--Who are/were these Rabbis and where can I find copies of their responsa on this topic?

thanks

Ed

edweid99@gmail.com

Mikewind Dale said...

Rabbi Messas: He is often cited by many, but see here, quoting an interview with Rabbi Marc Angel. Inter alia, we read: "There's a wonderful teshuvah by Rav Yosef Messas (a great Moroccan rabbi and later chief rabbi of Haifa). He says that not only do married women not have to cover their hair but that they shouldn't cover their hair. First of all he's 100 percent against a sheitel because it looks better than a woman's own hair. And to cover with a snood, hat, etc. is not healthy, he says, because they will become less attractive to their husbands who constantly see women with uncovered hair in the streets. Not too many poskim follow him; he's a yachid. But when I was a kid there certainly were many rabbis' wives who didn't cover their hair. So, I'm not giving a psak. I'm saying there are different opinions."

Rabbi Angel also cites Rabbi Messas, far more extensively, in his Loving Truth and Peace: The Grand Religious Worldview of Rabbi Benzion Uziel. Unfortunately, my copy of that book is on loan to someone else, so I cannot check the reference.

Rabbi Hurewitz: See Professor Marc Shapiro's "Another Example of Minhag America", here. The whole article is devoted to Hurewitz.

See also the quotation of Mahara"m Alkashar in Rabbi Avraham Shamma. (I give the URL here.) That article of Rabbi Shamma's is concerning kol b'isha, but the Mahara"m Alkashar he quotes is concerning hair covering.

All this is of course not enough to establish it as normative halakhah. But it is certainly a substantial enough minority opinion that we cannot invalidate the giyur of a woman who follows these rabbis!

Ed said...

Thank you

Ed said...

btw it's Maharam Alashkar

The tshuva of Maharam Alashkar quoted in part by R. Shamma deals with some hair extending outside the covering, not all of the woman's hair uncovered.

Mikewind Dale said...

Yes, but his point is that if it isn't customarily covered, it isn't obligated to be covered. His case is one part of the hair, but why not extend this to all the hair, if hair is no longer customarily covered? (Nowadays, nonobservant Jews and non-Jews both alike leave their hair uncovered - gentiles in Hazal's time did cover their hair - and so today, most women leave their hair uncovered, and so Maharam Alashkar (thanks) would presumably say like Rabbi Hurewitz.)

Naamah said...

I'm willing to accept that my Conservative conversion isn't valid by Orthodox standards because there are most likely some areas in which my rabbis were less observant and I am fairly certain held certain beliefs such as in the validity of the Documentary Hypothesis. I guess the real question is whether it matters what the rabbis think, or what I think.

Regarding the teshuvot about whether married women are permitted to go without hair coverings, I see the argument but why deviate from normative practice in the community? It seems like in most cases unwillingness to cover hair has more to do with perceived convenience rather than reliance on actual halakhic decisions. However, going back to the original issue, I don't think we have to try to halakhically justify something to defend the young man's choice to accept women who may not follow this particular mitzvah. No one is perfect in their observance, and we must also be aware of the possibility that people grow in their observance over time. Unfortunately, it is easier to ask questions about observances that are visible, rather than those that deal with interior qualities.

Mikewind Dale said...

Ach, why'd you have to go off and spill the beans about their beliefs? Haven't you heard about "Don't ask, don't tell?" Sigh...now I'll have to think more.

Anyway...

As for why a woman would want to have her hair uncovered, agains the community's norms, read Rabbi Marc Angel's The Search Committee, and Shimshonit's entry on why she herself does not cover her hair.

As for accepting that people grow, you're right that this allows us to have greater tolerance. But it's never good to accept someone only because you'll think he'll change. That's bad for friendships and bad for marriage. I thus have tried to reach further than that, to justify tolerance even if the person is not growing.

Eliyahoo William Dwek said...

When ‘dayanim’, ‘rabbis’ and false ‘mekubalim’ use the Torah for their own power and commercial profit, this behaviour is abhorrent.

No other ‘rabbi’ will ever act against another ‘rabbi’ - even when he knows his colleague is clearly desecrating the Torah. Each rabbi is only worried about losing his own position.

Therefore, the ‘rabbi’, ‘dayyan’ or false ‘mekubal’ (‘kabbalist’) will never effect justice. And he will never truly stand for the Torah or the Honour of Hashem. His pocket will always prevail.

The Torah must never be used for commercial gain and profit. Amm israel can only be lead by those who have the necessary love and respect of Hashem and the Torah.

Eliyahoo William Dwek said...

Any man who chooses to be a ‘rabbi’ (‘true teacher’ of Torah) or a ‘dayan’ (‘judge’), or a ‘mekubal’ (‘kabbalist’) should be doing so Voluntarily. Out of his pure love for Hashem and the Torah. And his Ahavat Yisrael.

If he refuses to do community work voluntarily, and wants and accepts payment for everything he does, such a man should not be leading a community. He should get a job and earn a living. He can collect milk bottles or clean the windows. That is what is called ‘earning a living’.

Torah is learned, studied and taught: out of Love. Voluntarily. But the ‘rabbis’ have turned the Torah into their ‘Profession’, from which they earn money.

We are commanded in the Shema to:

‘LOVE Hashem, your G-d, WITH ALL YOUR HEART, and with all your soul and with all your might.’

‘VE’AHAVTA et Hashem Elokecha BECHOL LEVAVECHA uvechol nafshecha uvechol meodecha.’ (Devarim, Vaethanan, 6:4-5)

Is the ordinary man or woman PAID to pray to Hashem, or to say some words of Torah? No. Has veshalom! But the rabbis are. These men can give ‘lovely’ shiurim that they have rehearsed. But they would not give a shiur without being paid for it.

The true hachamim and rabbis of old, all actually worked at proper jobs and professions.

Wake up! Even a little child could have worked this out. These salaried men can never truly stand for the Torah, because in a case of conflict between a correct course of action according to the Torah, and the rabbi or rav’s pocket – his pocket and position will always prevail.

Pirkei Avot: (2:2)
“Raban Gamliel beno shel Rabi Yehuda HaNassi omer: yafeh talmud Torah im derech eretz, sheyegiat shenaihem mashkachat avon. Vechol Torah she’ein imah melacha sofa betailah ve’goreret avon. Vechol haoskim im hatzibbur yiheyu imahem leShem Shamayim……”

“Rabban Gamliel, the son of Rabi Yehuda HaNassi, said: It is good to combine Torah study with a worldly occupation, for working at them both drives sin from the mind. All Torah without an occupation will in the end fail and lead to sin. And let all who work for the community do so for the sake of Heaven………”

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